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NORWALK, Conn. – City Carting won the right to pick up Norwalk's garbage when the Common Council Tuesday allowed the city to enter into a 10-year contract with the company.
The vote, as predicted by council member Michael Geake (U-District B), was 9 to 6. All of the Republicans, most of whom had been silent through the meeting, voted for the contract, which includes extending through 2023 City Carting's contracts for recycling and for handling the transfer station. They were joined in the vote for approval by Geake and council member Bruce Kimmel (D-District D).
Council member Anna Duleep (D-At Large) pointed out that the council had given more information in the night's agenda to the proposal for a $6,500 grant from the state library than it had to the 10-year contract with City Carting. Three short paragraphs described the terms the council was agreeing to, she said.
Democratic Town Committee chair Amanda Brown made a similar point during the public hearing. "Without a contract you have not read or seen how can you vote yes for it?" she asked.
Geake said before the meeting that contracts are never presented to the council when a bid is up for consideration. "Until we approve a bid, the law department doesn't do a contract," he said. "The law department tailors a contract to what the council has approved, and any stipulations we put to it."
The finished contract does not come back to the council for a vote, he said.
Department of Public Works Director Hal Alvord said the numbers that were presented to the council will not change. But, he said, the council can cancel the contract at any time without a penalty.
The contract contains three standard clauses, he said, including a "termination for convenience," meaning the city can cancel it without "really" giving a reason. Also, "Even if we have a 10-year contract, the city can next year in the budget process decide that they don't want to fund the contract for garbage collection," he said.
City officials estimate outsourcing garbage collection to City Carting will save the city $17 million over its term.
Council member Carvin Hilliard (D-District B) was among those complaining about the smell at City Carting's Meadow Street facility, although Alvord said the city's garbage will not go there. Hilliard and others said the city has missed opportunities to get City Carting to clean up its act; and Hilliard said there are costs that are not factored into the discussion. He said residents of the area have health problems they say are caused or made worse by the facility, and then go to Norwalk Hospital.
"What affects South Norwalk affects the whole city," he said. "We should be asking them what are they going to do about Meadow Street. We're rewarding them and, in my opinion, they are not doing well."
Editor's Note: This story has been modified from its original version to better reflect the circumstances of the vote.
Comments (43)
Anybody notice two legal notices in the HOUR today about remediation of several properties on Meadow Street ? The adresses sound like City Carting properties (owner of record is Meadow St partners)
After doing business at Meadow St for years without a permit, City Carting did not apply for a new permit in their name which would require bringing the site into compliance with present rules, but somehow prevailed on former owner Waste Management Co to renew a long expired permit, and then transfer it to City Carting. DEEP went along with this, so don't count on much help from them.
Last Sunday evening I asked councilman McCarthy to go down to City Carting on Meadow St and then come back and tell us about the smell. I don't know if he went there, but he never came back here and told us about the smell. Maybe he passed out from the terrible stench and forgot.
"Old Timer" You did no such thing, as I have no idea who you are.
Responding in this manner is about as much as I am willing to do for an anonymous post. I pass by Meadow St 3-5 times a week and am very familiar with the area. Trash on a 90 degree day stinks. That stink dissipates very quickly with distance. There are state standards they need to abide by and I am in the process of ensuring that they do and subsequently will invite the neighborhood associations that have complained to meet.
Dave
You are correct, I apologise, it was another councilman I spoke to on the phone, who never responded. I did ask you in comments here, but that doesn't count, I guess.
.
Your opinion about how quickly that stink dissipates depends on assumptions that are not always true. Some very hot days you may be right, but many days the stink just spreads around the neighborhood which may explain why some of the most vocal residents live some distance away. Those are the same days we are warned about air quality problems, when there is no breeze and the heat and humidity are very high. Passing by in a moving car you may not notice, but, if you get out of the car and walk around, you will be amazed how far that stink effects the air people breathe.
Good luck getting them to abide by the rules or getting DEEP to enforce any rules. There is a lot they could do without much expense, if they wanted.
Reilly , in the HOUR, reports Bridgeport tried outsourcing garbage collection for a while and went back to city employees doing the job. Wonder if any of our elected officials asked them why.
was behind a garbage truck on west rocks road today .... they just tossed the empty trash cans back on the owners propert....
when ithey got to boundary where the city doesnt pick up. the empty trah cans were neatly standing on the owners property
is this payback ??????
Politricks ; You could be right and I can`t help only to think that its going to get worst now that the city guys know there giong to the highway dept. Only time will tell and if it does happen customer service phones should be ringing off the hook (203) 854-3200 .
Al Raymond
I was there at the meeting , there were a couple of things that I left with, One) is that Norwalk need a third party cause what I saw on that stage the other night was a discrace. Two) why would some one put all there eggs in one basket. Three) I understand what went on but I don`t feel it`s right I don`t care what anyone says I would not approve a contract unless I saw the whole thing drawn up all the T`s crossed and the I`s dotted that my friends is how you CYA and you have to do that in this day and age. Whats to stop someone from saying oh that not what I meant or you miss under stood me if you have the contract in front of you it stops all the guess work.Also I feel that something as big as this should have gone back to the peolpe for a special vote have the people go back to the polls and let them decide what should happen.Other towns and citys do this only on the things that would effict all the people and were your tax dollars are concerned.
Al Raymond
@Old Timer
Were you at the meeting? There were numerous explanations by department heads and Council Members as to how the savings would come about. There have also been hard numbers and detailed spreadsheets published by various news web sites. Those numbers are now all part of the public record. You can refuse to believe the numbers, but they're out there for anyone who cares to look. I'm sure the "loyal opposition" on Council, as well as ardent Union supporters such as yourself, will keep an eye on that and follow up every six months to make sure that the savings are real. If they aren't, then that will be a great issue to bring up in the next election and we can hold our elected officials accountable.
My question is how the "termination for convenience" clauses work. On the one hand, we are told by Hal Alvord that the City can get out of these contracts without difficulty due to a number of clauses that allow the City to terminate, with or without a reason. On the other hand, we are also told that a ten year contract is necessary to justify a company making the capital investment of new trucks. But if the City terminates for convenience after three years, then the winning company is nonetheless stuck with three-year-old trucks and no business for them. Are the termination clauses truly as simple as it sounded last night? If anybody reading this knows the answer, I hope you will weigh in.
I, too, find termination clauses confounding, but they are the price vendors must pay when dealing with municipalities. For instance, what if, after an election, a new legislative body decides to not fund a contract. Perfectly legal, and a big problem for vendors. I believe they have insurance that protects them from these types of circumstances. It is also why smaller vendors have trouble bidding on larger municipal contracts. These clauses also are an incentive, to put it mildly, to abide by the provisions of the contract and to come through with the savings.
Councilman Kimmel,
Thank you for your reply. Is it the case then that the termination clauses allow the City to cancel at any time, for any reason, without paying any financial penalty?
I was and I heard every word. Hasselkamp's response to the questions about how City Carting gets 10 yr contracts and unions don't was a classic that translates to we have always done it that way, and that, was not an answer.
Alvord's answers were typical Alvord and he would say whatever he thought we wanted to hear.
I have no idea how a convenience clause really works, but I am sure it is not as simple as he makes it sound.
I was there too, and I heard Alvord say that they will not be using one-man trucks with automatic loaders because Norwalk's configuration make those unworkable. So I'm not sure why you're saying one-man trucks will be used.
Also your math below questioning the savings doesn't acknowledge a fact which you yourself pointed out to me a week or so ago on these pages. About half of the $1.7 million a year in savings comes from outsourcing garbage, the balance comes from other savings negotiated in existing related contracts.
I'm truly sorry for the eight or twelve Union workers who will be reassigned to other DPW jobs and receive a lumpsum payment of about $8000 this year, followed by a reduction in salary of the same amount next year. But the City has a responsibility to taxpayers to provide essential services as inexpensively as possible. Norwalk has 32,711 households, so savings of $1.7 million per year work out to about $52 per household. Assuming the savings are real, it would be irresponsible to ignore that. As I said before, I do hope that the contract's progress is monitored to verify that the savings are in fact achieved.
Alvord was talking about a crane device that picks up the container and dumps it into the truck with the driver staying in the cab. They are currently using one man trucks with a hydraulic device that dumps the containers into the truck, but the driver has to move the container to the right place at the back of the truck and move it back to the sidewalk. The hardest part of the drivers job is getting in and out of the truck at every stop., moving the containers, which have wheels, is not very hard. The drivers need to be very fit.
As for Alvord's PROJECTED savings, I believe he exaggerates and lies when it suits his purpose. There will be savings, no doubt, but not as much a he claims. When the time comes to ask about why the savings don't meet his projections, he will have a very reasonable sounding excuse and it will be somebody else's fault.
Take the decrease in the DPW budget, which will never happen, and allocate some of the supposed cost saving to the Board of Education - let's save our children future... something good should surely come out of this.
This is unbelievable, I just don't understand how they can do this just to save $17 million. We need to keep the unions at work in the city. The one things I didn't agree with in the criticism is the really incredibly ugly man who made the wild accusations about the mafia. I don't get him at all.
There is not a lot you do get, is there ?
Why do we need the unions? Other than the Police & Fire dept the only thing the unions do is ensure raises & job security regardless of economic reality. In the private sector unions are kept in check by non union competition in this state, that is not the case regarding municipal unions & our taxes are great evidence of that.
What is it that you think the fire and police unions do. The police union should be the first to go as all it does is protect cops when they violate a department policy or commit a crime and negotiate contracts that make it near impossible to fire a dirty cop..Not to mention contracts that have more reasons for overtime than straight time.
JkwandaR
Get him ? What's to get ? He said he was a retired cop and he was quoting a newspaper story cited here in one of the stories about City Carting. At the last line in the story the word ALLEGATIONS is highlighted . Click on that word and it is a link to the newspaper story.
The Story here was about people wondering why the rush.
Believe or not., there is a lot of information online about Mr Fiorillo and organized crime people he has been involved with.
A lot of us have doubts about how this will save 17 million. There may be savings, but not all they are saying. City Carting is a big company with lots of experience. They will not use three men on a truck and that will save. The DPW could probably have negotiated big savings with the union, but decided privatizing was cheaper. Some of us wonder about some of the motives involved. It is a shame the union did not organize more support. Alvord, to his credit, made it clear the union could not have qualified as a serious bidder.
Well Bruce please go back and ask the mayor what can be done about the smell for over 800 feet on meadow st could you smell garbage this morning.Respiratory problems among those children waiting for the bus when school starts along Meadow st may be a problem.It was said you worked with children before, any suggestions for these poor kids when school starts
Gary Rose head of the Air Quality dept of the Ct DEEP at 860 424 3468 will be able to verify for years Meadow St had had problems with Air quality.Norwalk board of health may say something else but then again its where you get your information not how its given.
Horrendus smell this morning tells us all South Norwalk and can sit and rot with all that garbage enough has been said.
NFD Engine 5 could smell it as they were leaving the district this morning leaving South Norwalk open to a slow response.How could four men smell that and not admit the stench is there?
Most of us downwind could smell gusts of it,a nice way to start the day with breakfast.I can only imagine how it smells if your on the other side of the street.
The smell has already been addressed; discussions took place yesterday. City Carting will immediately implement a number of procedures -- for instance, doubling the amount of misting, keeping all refuse trucks inside -- that should mitigate the smell.
Bruce
You need to verify for yourself how well they implement, and how effective it is. Visit on a hot Sunday, get out of your car and walk around, then come back and tell us what a great job they are doing, or not. You may even start to doubt Alvord, sometimes. (only when he says something)
Mr. Kimmel, I will try to find minutes and public records* for you, but seems to me that these procedures you say are being implemented immediately, were "immediately implemented" over a year ago- Has that worked out well for residents & nearby businesses? Uh, not so much...
*
Permit application Findings of Fact: "The misting system operates continuously on five minute intervals during warmer months. The operating personnel can increase the frequency of the misting system or adjust the amount of counteractant for warmer days or when loads with stronger odors are present. The odorous loads are quickly transferred into a covered trailer and sent off site for final disposal."
Permit approval Condition 11-g:
Operate the Facility in a safe manner and control fire, odor, noise, spills, vectors, litter and
dust emission levels in continuous compliance with all applicable requirements, including
OSHA. The Facility’s premises shall be maintained and any litter shall be removed on a
daily basis.
I enjoy reading facts it always fuels my speculation of wrong doings,if they spray it to sit for three days with mesh it would increase tonnage. City Carting has already weighed in for and is responsible to pay at the disposal site from its customers.Mesh covers lets the load dry out solid covers is what the State signed in for.Solid covers if anything heats up inside and creates heat that will burn the skin it gets so hot from both the water and solid tarp itself.
So what most would say I'm fishing again,yet some facts suggest water is about 10 pounds to the gallon.Once you take your trash sit on the scale thats what you pay for simple and plain. So to add 500 gallons to 70,000 pounds(of course if Duff had his DOT place portable scales on Wilson ave well that might wrap up his bid to win the seat by helping those who need the help the most,,,no not us fines for overloads goes back to the State but is a start Bob)if we have overloaded trucks.
I realize Bob has no pull like that but whenever there is a DOT grant job or earmark he does relish in the PR,I thank him for that.But seriously overloaded trucks are not an issue where when school starts plenty of kids walking Meadow street if they are not checked.profit in confusion seems to be some city depts sound bites.
I love to drift with my ideas sometimes drawing pictures was my forte.Can't do short stories I can't spell.
So who pays for loads that are over what City Carting charges once they are wet down for a few days?They do sit there for days.
In fact they are filled let to sit out in the rain at times with mesh tops then transported without sitting on the scales again its been seen as a practice they sit Sunday late Monday early and go onto the road,could they overload themselves with heavy rains?Needless to say if they rely on letting the water drain out on Wilson up MLK onto west ave well as long as it has no chemicals in it who cares,the Norwalk Shellfish Commission has issues but are not for the public to know I guess.
Not watertight trailors then the wash goes into Village creek before they start out for the landfill a loss loss for anyone involved I think.
So is it coincidence City Carting stopped such a practice of wettting loads as much but gave that up as a item to satisfy unsuspecting council members with?
No one would use that issue as a smoke screen in our trustworty city now would they?
So much for my fishing expedition but for those who are concerned about the environment this may be an eye opener for what goes on in the trash world.
Bruce,
Shame on you, buddy! You should resign from office!
@rickybobbi
With all due respect, I disagree. We need more thoughtful, independent people on Council such as Bruce Kimmel. David Watts is the councilman who should resign. When David Watts wears a Union T-shirt to a Council meeting where City business with Unions is being discussed, he's telling voters in no uncertain terms that he's more interested in representing Unions than representing us. If Councilman Watts wants to continue representing Unions, he should resign from the Common Council and run for Business Agent of Local 2405.
Lwitherspoon,
Bruce Kimmel should resign from office and you should move to IRAN. People have a right to wear what they wish . You and Councilman Kimmel could wear matching "I voted for City" t shirts or "I brake for City" bummer stickers. This is America, Jack!
@rickybobbi
I agree with you that people have a right to wear what they wish. Those choices tell us a lot. Mr. Watts's choice to wear a Union T-shirt to Council meetings shows that he's more interested in representing Unions than representing ordinary taxpayers. Unfortunately for Mr. Watts, Tuesday's vote proved that he's not a very effective representative for Unions, either.
Apparently two additional comments by "rickibobbi" have been deleted. Maybe it was because the Daily Voice deemed the comments inappropriate. Certainly the deleted comments contained little more than libel and name-calling. Whatever the case, I didn't complain about rickibobbi's comments to the Daily Voice. I'm generally not in favor of comments being deleted, because it can become a slippery slope, especially if there are no clear guidelines in terms of what's allowed and what isn't. I can, however, see the rationale for zapping comments that resort to name-calling and outright insults. In any case, I have deleted my comment which was responding to the now-deleted comments of "rickibobbi."
Oh but you feel your racist comment was ok...You most also feel that you mocking ones religion is ok..Those are the ones that should have been deleted..
LWitherspoon:
Yes, there were comments deleted. They were in violation of our Terms of Use, due to their aggressive nature and name calling.
You can see our Terms of Use here: http://norwalk.dailyvoice.com/terms_of_use
@Andrew
Thank you for the link to the terms of use.
Why not add,most of the procedures were what the terms were when the State gave them the license years ago.
Get the contract read it you sound like your learning this stuff thru others first hand
Save these patronizing statements we do our homework as well.
I hope any answer we get from now on will not sound like the note was passed.
So what your telling us heavy misting but didn't hear solid covers not mesh will present spontanious combustion and give your firefighters more overtime? Solid covers for anything holding waste outside the building,you sure the cost of 15 or so covers will not be absorbed by the city under misc?
Your answers are intersting they seem to be well thought out by your team,shame it doesn't sound like the interest of the taxpayers health was ever considered until now.Like our kids ,they will say anything for another cookie.
You wonder why your service to the city sounds compromising? So far you havn't told us anything that should of been,or any one of us can read on line,further more giving answers and not telling us what was suppose to have happened protects those from not doing there job up till now right .This is where some councilors are saying there may be a trust factor on whats going to happen with the two streams when the city is now going back on old contracts making sure they are in compliance.
Maybe we should hire a team to overlook performance and compliance at a cost we just saved to make sure the jobs are done rights after all and the taxpayres get what they are paying for right in ever facet of Norwalks departments.
Now Dave McCrathy took the time to tell us all was fine the he was there but not inside the gate for smell maybe that started the ball rolling with the State it didn't match the conditions of the license,and you telling us it wasn't connected to the last round of trash talks making it sound maybe some of us should go away we were wrong for asking about Meadow st until you team was told Norwalk city uses that facilty for some of its trash was yet another back peddle.
We are not idiots the shellfish commision hasn't said much but knows a lot so please as we are hearing more about compliance don't abandon us your at least giving us time to peer inside this complex way of how the cities no tell unless asked policy is working.
Yes I use the word team,we have one also some had shirts made others just met the other night from all areas of the city, to think it took this contract to establish what team your on,hate to think any one team has to lose.No ground on the quality of life in Norwalk should be lost based on the more said the better off people can be.
Thnak you at least your honest showing us how the information flows from the top down,just don't let yourself be put out to dry from those who are good at it I still see a need for your ability to work with others to pass us information that till now has been impossible to get or have reported.
No surprise at all, the meeting was a farce and the two cops assigned to it were a waste of police dept resources. What will they privatize next, police or fire ?
I am embarrassed that our elected council voted to approve a contract and eliminate twelve DPW jobs without anybody explaining what it cost and where the savings would come from. City Carting is definitely a for profit company. I have no doubt they will be able to collect the garbage for less simply by changing how it is done. Their one man trucks will be cheaper to operate than our three man trucks.. Their non-union employees will cost them less. But, that does not add up to 1.7 million a year, and City Carting rates will, by contract, go up each year.
1.7 million divided by 12 jobs eliminated is 141,666.67 a year average savings for each job. We know our garbage men did not get that much. Alvord claims the city would need to buy a million dollars worth of new trucks, and eliminating that expense, spread over ten years, accounts for more savings, but not that much. We have not been told how much we will be obligated to pay City Carting. But, unless they are working for nothing, there is no 1.7 million a year savings. Unless they see a considerable profit, there is no reason for them to buy a million dollars worth of new trucks and another million or so worth of the required 64 gallon garbage cans.
Until somebody gives a clear and simple explanation of where 17 million in savings is coming from, a lot of us remain unconvinced. If the performance we saw at the meeting last night told me anything, I do not expect to ever hear that explanation. Mr kydes had it right when he asked if the DPW budgets would be reduced by 1.7 million each year. A lot of us are betting DPW budgets will go up. A lot of us are getting tired of secret back room deals and union busting.
You know as well as I and most in Norwalk that its a scam.
They must be that good, don't complain.
How is it that 2 council people don't know that they don't get completed contracts? Contracts run 20+ pages and certainly a debate on every aspect of a contract would be impossible. Was there a problem or something nebulous in the authorization presented?
Nancy: your editorialization is going through the roof here. Your bias in reporting is now out there for all to see. Why would you begin the story the way you have? In the last 20 years, every vote the council has taken has been for the authorization for a contract, which is not written until it passes. You're testifying, you are not reporting.
JON
Do you know they will NEVER see those contracts ? Once they very predictably voted as they were told, they gave away the only chance to see, or have any effect on, the contracts. A lot of people, including council members, will be surprised when they take effect. Wait till you see what single stream really means.
We have changed the first sentence to better reflect the circumstances of the vote. Thanks for your input - Mz.
You did? it still says "a contract that doesn't exist" which implies that it should, which isn't true.
How is it that city carting already picked up both my trash and recycling yesterday? I have never noticed them doing it before
Welcome to single stream recycling. A single truck picks up eveything and they don't have to send out a bunch of seperate trucks just for cans, bottles, etc. Once these contracts go into effect, they will pickup trash and recycleables all in the same one man trucks and save a bunch of money on drivers. They claim it is more effective for them to pick though the truckloads on the tipping floor and pull out the stuff they can recycle and cheaper than sending out a fleet of recycling trucks and a fleet of garbage trucks. We'll see how that works out for us. No doubt it will save money for City Carting.
Alvord NOW thinks single stream is a great idea even if he said before it was not feasable. I will not speculate out loud on what changed his mind.