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NORWALK, Conn. – Brick roads would be practical, feasible and economically beneficial in Norwalk's downtown areas, a community activist says. But the director of the Department of Public Works is having none of it.
The video of a brick-road-laying Tiger Stone machine, shown above, was recently distributed on an email list by Jackie Lightfield, former chairman of the zoning commission. Her subject line was, "Imagine if we could require downtown areas to have brick paved roads?"
"Not so farfetched with this cool machine," she said in her email to Norwalk Center, a Google Group created by Norwalk 2.0.
"Awesome," Carol Frank replied in a group email. "How about my driveway next??"
When asked, DPW Director Hal Alvord agreed the machine was neat. But that was it.
"I looked at it," he said. "It appeared to be a novel concept. I didn't see that it had an awful lot of applications in Norwalk."
Lightfield thinks it would be great if parts of Norwalk would feature brick streets.
"Absolutely not. It would be a complete waste of time," Alvord said. "It's going to be more expensive than asphalt pavement and then every time a utility company or a contractor digs it up it's going to look like total crap."
But brick streets contribute to traffic calming, Lightfield said. "Norwalk's roads are mostly resurfaced over failing beds, and that is why they crack and create new potholes," Lightfield said. "A cement or cobblestone base eliminates that, and they essentially last a lifetime."
The brick-laying machine wouldn't be a good buy for Norwalk, Alvord said. "It helps ... if the place is nice and flat like a pancake. You start getting hills and winding streets and all of that, it gets a lot more difficult to use," he said.
"Hal may not have been to countries in Europe where this has been in use where they have hills, mountains and utility companies as well," Lightfield said. "Strangely, even Montreal in the old part has chosen brick over asphalt because it is easier to take up and repair in dense urban areas."
"Then let her move to Montreal," Alvord said. "I'll drive her there."
Comments (37)
My understanding is that the advantage of paving stones in the city of Rome, Italy is that there is never ponding or flooding of the roads. The water drains away thru the edges between the stones... a positive. I also found walking on them (as well as bricks) hard on the feet. I'm just saying...
Whoa, hold on, Mr. Alford. Why are you challenged by this idea? Surely you have more background to bring to the table. Why debase public discourse with 'go back where you came from' remarks?
Kay
Roads in Brooklyn were paved, years ago, with cobble stones made of stone blocks (granite, I believe) and wore pretty well for a very long time.
The roads I saw were near waterfront locations and heavily traveled. I don't know if they were any more slippery in winter than other material, but some are now being restored where large sections suffered the loss of the stones, stolen for other uses a few years ago. The original stones came from Europe as ballast in boats and were used as pavers as a way of disposing of them, I understand.
Someday it's going to be an ambulance or fire / rescue vehicle that has to go the long way around because we have been inept about a long standing danger to us all.
This was an odd thing to say when water collects under bridges,I almost thought it was obvious when the men from the East Norwalk fire station are in the boat with the engine parked at Vets park and the bridge is up and 95 is backed up and there is little coverage in East Norwalk .We have three powerful emergency boats the police dept uses all the time they continue to save lives protect the water from all kinds of dangers yet Norwalk fire finds the time to tool around the water when in fact they should be checking the city for fire code voilations.The nightclub packed to capacity on Wall st two weeks ago had its fire alarm activated but it took people at the bar to call 911 to tell them the fire alarm was sounding in a full nightclub.The Station night club taught many lessons when a 100 died from that fire in Rhode Island one can only hope that lesson was taught in Norwalk and hasn't waited for new classrooms at the skyscraper called a fire station on ct ave.
Yes Norwalk throws money around I agree
I guess those streets on Nantucket with its cobble stone streets shows only those who enjoy a true waterside community what can happen when old street lights brick walks and old buildings bring to the econmic side of community.Too bad Norwalk didn't have all of those nice things to offer visitors.So maybe the stone was a bad idea after all.
wow!
Things arent often as simple as they might seem & this is a ridiculous thing to consider outside of very limited applications. We waste enough money in Norwalk already.
Just a musing to amuse.
I was born well after the advent of pneumatic rubber tires. I never rode in or on a conveyance which used iron rimmed, wooden spoke wheels.
There was a milkman ( a 1 milkman town in the 50s' ) that in winter would mount skids to his gasoline engine powered truck and with some front end contraption, hitch a horse that pulled the truck and it's load through town. My amazement as a very small child, was that of Ernie, getting to and from his truck from more milk eggs and butter and his horse advancing the business on wheels to the next point on the route and stopping by itself. The horse knew the route!
Oneida has winters that before the train could come down the tracks into town a powerful engine would come first and push and blow snow well away from the tracks.
I can remember that Oneida Silver Plate and the Main St Hospital did have something similar to the Belgium block of today. These were harsh winters cold enough to freeze Oneida Lake to the point people would tow their Airstream campers out there and enjoy some ice fishing for an entire winter.( unhitching the monster 8 cylindr Buick to come and go )
I don't think extreme cold is a deterrent to using brick and stone for reasons of transportation.
Today's modern technology with tuned suspension and tires that advertise a quiet ride, behemoth machines that lay block and stone is progress. If it was such a losing idea who on earth would draft and design these machines if they didn't believe they had a reasonable use, be in demand and a good profit margin. There are still people out there that believe the only thing we have gained from going to outer space is Tang and a pen that will write upside down under water oh and hook and loop tape ( Velcro ).
Another thought is that if we can't and we haven't as of yet, solve the issue of continuously flooded train underpasses in town, perhaps we shouldn't do anything extra. Someday it's going to be an ambulance or fire / rescue vehicle that has to go the long way around because we have been inept about a long standing danger to us all.Ernie managed to solve his problem of delivering milk in winter without the noise of the truck and tire chains Who works on underpasses any way?
We don't have to bring in a contractor or consultant. just have our civil engineer call his counterparts in other like-sized cities and chat about the pro's and con's. If long distance communication is going to be an expense, they can use my phone. I have unlimited minutes.
As a side, perhaps Civil Engineering courses should have 2 or 3 credits on civility, after all they are working with the public. Being close minded about something and shutting down does nothing, not even gaining a little knowledge for the future
I'm sure they have a place & use, just not on public highways. Think about it, pavers are old technology. to use your own logic why would we develope first concrete & then asphalt if pavers were better? Theres nothing closed minded about resisting going backwards. The underpasses are along the same lines. Many of the troublesome ones are nearly 100 years old. Its a shame that the municipalities need to deal with them since the exist for rail service which should be self funding. It should be a simple matter of telling Metro North to fix them or the city will remove them as obstacles. We have little issue taking peoples property in the name of modernization and progress yet its near impossible to get them to deal with flooded choke points caused by these antiquated bridges that really are needed by relatively few people. We cant fix our pier or retaining wall at the beach without special grants & begging from the state, the last thing we need is some silly machine to create roads similar to those the Romans used 2000 years ago.
You ramble on and on but once again say nothing.. Your long winded useless posts are just a waste of bandwidth
Tell us what is your mental disorder???
BROAD SWAMP, PAIGE, AND SPOONER = THE 3 STOOGES
Based on what I just saw and read Jackie this idea is truly your best,Some of us grew up with stone city streets,the Old North Church has had them there since or before the church was built,winter after winter in old beantown where streets are ripped up all the time seems to be fine after all those years.
Lets talk some fact,lets talk today.If this machine or process was used today on Washinton and South main st on the sidewalks alone it would have saved hiring police officers for days waiting for the company who installed the lights.I'm waiting to take pictures but won't be able to tell you about the finished product until the sand is washed away the job is still on going.I can tell you some of the brickwork that was taken up and put back down at various intersections is a mess and its not even been 2 months.
Lets all go see the work LAZ has done at the front entrance to the Aquarium on the curbing yes folks curbing.Its disgusting what in the hell are two LAZ employees doing with a trash can on wheels a few buckets of water and a section of plywood braced with road coes doing fixing granite curbing with a few bags of cement making the job look like a third world county experiment.First the patch job a few feet long poses a danger to people walking by it the grade dips and the outside fascade has stone showing as if it was poured wrong.Why has the city of Norwalk decided to sub out sidewalk work and let LAZ do it.The drain is now slipping into the hole the job needs a professional not a LAZ employee.Why is LAZ doing sidewalk work?
Lets take another example of brickwork disturbed by who else LAZ in front of the post offices and along the city streets where LAZ has set in posts for parking signs knee high.Some of the signs you cannot see untill you open your door of your car and hit them most are bent and have disrupted even more oranamental brick.
Yes I have pictures of LAZ performiong the work,not the standard work the DPW does with trucks and welding machines its substandard work folks.
Taxpayers wake up your walking or driving by this work LAZ performs its an accident waiting to happen the signs the poles in front of the two Norwalk post offices ia a disgrace considering the brickwork has not been disturbed by utility work the bricks are stuffed back into holes with no class leaving some not graded right leaving people to trip on the work.
I'm all for what Jackie is suggesting its brillant but if your seeking Hals comments show him some pictures I'll start posting them on TOPIX see for yourself LAZ does whatever they want with Hals blessing and most of the work is substandard so why is he even suggesting this is a bad idea NPA didn't suggest it instead?
Shame on those who have left this city in the hands of a private contractor look at these examples and tell us all Norwalk is not liable for injury the way some jobs are left by LAZ. Norwalk vehicles are seen all the time drivne by LAZ Sat nights when parking gargages are full you see LAZ driving around sweepers cleaning up debris only in travel lanes parking spots are filled then you see them on Sunday open parking spots empty garages not worked on at all.
The parking lot by Oyster shell park has a man with a broom and a barrel on weekends sweeping the lot why not the sweeper itself its called private contracting by out of towners some out of State working Norwalks streets as if those in charge could care less how they spend money.Its said the NPA has had problems making money I wonder why who runs the crew from LAZ?
Go look at your brickwork around the work LAZ does on our city streets and ask yourself why did Norwalk accept grants have the work done to be destroyed by inexperienced parking attendents?
Very rarely do I agree with anyone but Jackie you have hit this one out of the park it would compliment the city and get rid of that dip coming off the bridge taking a left onto water street that has been there for at least ten years.
Most people are too young to remember or didn't live in the area at the time but there were major arteries in Norwalk that were once pave with bricks. Main street up to about Broad St. was a brick road along with East Av. parts of West Av. and Wall St. They were terrible in the rain and very noisy all the time. I remember the city replacing them all when I was a kid. In this day and age they belong only in driveways.
We have two downtown historic districts which would represent good areas to develop brick / cobblestone streets. Historic SoNo, Washington Street etc. , and Historic Wall Street. The investment in historic infrastructure has included brick sidewalks, crosswalks and street lights in some areas, but has had haphazard implementation over the years.
The concerns raised about ice / snow are good ones and should be examined along with how drainage and road pitch are designed.
While I appreciate Hal's suggestion to move to Montreal, he is once again a bit behind the times, as I once lived in Montreal already.
I think it is long overdue for us to take a greater interest in how we invest in how our down towns look instead of defaulting to the arguments that no one cares and change is impossible.
@jlightfield
Could this all be an awkward misunderstanding, and Mr. Alvord was inviting you to come away with him? Someone should advise the Colonel that such entreaties ought not be delivered via the news media, especially in forums populated by smart-assed commenters such as myself and others here.
@lwitherspoon LOL!
lwitherspoon Are you messed up today?
@ jlightfield,
Very well said.
Because you mentioned Wall St.it reminded me of something,.. maybe you could slip a note to someone responsible that Next to the beautiful clock we have at Wall and Main, the Main St. sign itself has completely worn away lettering. A person in a car along side of me, up near the Beldon Post Office, exasperatingly asked me if I knew where Main St. Norwalk was. Hopefully we have money for that. What's the expected life of a street sign. Yet hey the clock is on time, last I looked. :-)
Montreal is beautiful !
How did you have a conversation from the wheels bus..I was not aware the windows of the bus opened...Learn something new everyday..
What makes you think that this conversation took place from a wheels bus?
Numerous times now you've accused people who disagree with you of riding the bus, as though there's something wrong with that. You've also accused Broad River of being a garbage hauler, as though there was something wrong with that. Keep it up Timmy, the insults, lies, and purely personal attacks show everybody who you really are.
Once again you are putting words in others mouths. You never post the truth why is that???I suggested yesterday that you get a hobby, I see you did not take that suggestion and are still here posting your lies and hate. Maybe if you did not have so much hate in your heart you would not be such a lonely old man..You should try to get over what a failure your life has been as that can not be changed at this point. That horrid comment you made about those poor people getting their house shot at in Taylor Ave is proof of what you are,,,I know you will deny it but that is what you do when called out...
Brick would be very attractive. I don't know enough about it to have an opinion either way as to cost or maintenance. As an aside I'm concerned about the SONO sidewalks where the brick was ripped up to install (I think) the new camera ready traffic lights. I hope they're put back the way they were soon.
Which downtown streets does Ms. Lightfield feel should be paved with brick?
I can understand the aesthetic appeal but I don't think it makes sense unless there are clear net cost savings vs. existing practice.
Part of Alvord's professional responsibility to the city as an engineer is to evaluate the cost of proposals. Right or wrong, he has decided against brick paving as good value. Makes me wonder how other cities find it to be a good value. Forming an opinion on that would require a lot of research.
The bad manners are not part of his job description, but, by now, we should not be surprised.
Old Timer
I agree that the Hal Alvord should have shown better manners here.
Suggesting that an active, involved citizen who proposes an idea for beautifying Norwalk should move to Montreal crosses the line. I hope he simply thought he was being funny and it came out wrong.
Uh, I'm not defending Hal, but I would like to point out that what is verbally spoken often does not translate well in print. We don't get to see the facial expression, hear the tone or other nuances that often clues people into the message.
@ Paige,
I agree that syntax and even vocal tamber can make a world of difference. You know me and assumptions LOL I thought as I read,..
jlightfield:
" While I appreciate Hal's suggestion to move to Montreal, he is once again a bit behind the times, as I once lived in Montreal already."
Was speaking in first person. ( or is first person what Bob Dole does LOL )
Better could have been something like, ' well perhaps we should all move to Montreal ;. yet reading that, it dosen't read well ( but you can't see my smiling face now kin ya ?) either.
Who cares that you agree...Mr. I think I am an expert at everything but actually know nothing.
What downtown areas? Because of the poor insight of P and Z all Norwalk has is a bunch ugly strip malls and big box stores. All Mom and Pop operations are gone. Now Norwalk even looks "blue colar".
In the video it looked like the workers were hand patterning the bricks. This looks to be very labor intensive and costly. Pavin is also much cheaper for a city with budget issues
@ M.Murray,
I'm not about to disagree with you. I'm just putting a few personal thoughts out there.
I have done a few DIY home projects with reclaimed brick that I was able to remove with permission from local construction sites. My 12x12 tool shed is still planted firmly on bricks I acquired from a manufacturing plant demolished near Main & Broad around 1984. ( I think they packaged food in aluminum foil for troops during WW11).
So perhaps it was labor intensive, especially for me a first timer at it but the cost of materials was nil.
A good reason to cross-train workers is so we don't have 3 people gazing at the young charming passersby as their work is finished for a few hours or more. I suppose gone are the days that volunteers can do some of the dirty less skilled work to make a project run less expensive.
Bridgeport didn't have any objections to high school kids helping out with construction of a Santa's Village at Beardsley park in 1967. It was very rewarding for me and helped me with the decision to stay in school. Rough framing was not going to be a something I would want to do for a living. We have a few small areas where we, Norwalk, have put down brick and stone, don't we have real numbers on cost to do these jobs and follow up maintenance costs? Buying a paver machine, now that has to be a no brainer. Otherwise my tool shed would be loaded with purchases of one time use tools, especially when I know full right well, my neighbor has the identical like new tools in his shed. What's wrong with rental or the loaning of equipment from neighboring towns. I think there is a lot more to making a decision than watching two or three men load a paving machine. These same guys would be using rakes or something somewhere else on the project hours after their day began at a site but they were not needed yet. Let's get productive work from people at construction jobs. It's laughed at that in the service a heavy equipment expert also works in the mess hall. interestingly enough amongst 80 men or so there were over 125 skilled job sets.
Maybe we could just try a little and see what we think. Isn't that how a lot of us got our kids to eat their veggies? :-)
OMG Change!? oh no we better not!
Some people refuse to accept change some just fear it and others embrace it. I can't bring to mind any modern, forward thinking examples where change isn't good
Our city engineers have counterparts in other cities and regions right? Why not pick up the phone and get pro and con examples and then do a little of our own critical thinking about where it might be good, where it might not work at all and where it might be the best thing since sliced bread.
When I think of my 100's of vacation trips over the years, not many but most that come to mind first are those that had some brick or cobble stone paths. streets or market places.
Norwalk is always boasting it's historic appeal and has even re-faced building to have a certain ' look '.
I don't think saying " I'll drive here there ", is any where close to a reasonable statement to make about another that is trying to attempt change or be innovative about Norwalk's appeal. This however is coming from a department that can't manage to get One manhole cover in the town to be somewhat flush with the all holy asphalt they lay. Trim overgrowth from around traffic traffic, street and route direction signs did I mention posted speed limit signs? Line of sight issues at at least ten percent of our major intersections is impossible. So a new paving idea is absurd.
What happened to the reducing costs of asphalt by adding recycled glass? It seems the road to Calf Pasture is smooth and durable. Why hasn't that idea been expanded?
Personally I would like to see more pavers in town. Where we do have them they don't look like they are in disrepair and they are certainly pleasing to the eye. I guess my only thought on where pavers might not be a good idea, is those places we plan on creating bike lanes.
Here is what a a few others have to say, a few with the ability and experience to at least try a little change,..
Winter Park's (FL.) brick restoration program is one of the most extensive in the country, but the city is not alone in its effort to preserve or bring back a method of paving that had all but disappeared during the last half century. Exactly how many towns and cities are returning to brick streets isn't known. But the trend seems to be going on in all parts of the country:.
• City officials in Cumberland, Md., plan to expand preservation of its brick streets to another 6 square miles. The city already protects brick streets within its historic downtown neighborhood.
• The city of Brooksville, Fla., is removing pavement to expose long forgotten brick streets. To keep the cost of exposing the city's 2 miles of uncovered brick streets low, the city uses prison labor, public works director Emory Pierce says.
• Amarillo, Texas, has spent $200,000 already to restore one block of brick street. The city plans to restore part of another later this year, says city engineer Michael Smith..
Brick streets aren't just about public policy. Preservationists in Blair, lead tours of historic neighborhoods. In Pauls Valley, Okla., residents celebrate the city's old brick streets with an annual "Brickfest."
The growing interest in brick streets has spawned a new wave in urban and suburban design and, in some cases, helped boost local economies. Architects and builders now market the "main street" of old American towns, designing new developments and in reviving the appearance of older cities. Cleveland, Tampa and Annapolis, Md., have turned to brick streets in an attempt to rejuvenate neglected downtown areas. Architects say that they are using bricks in new open-air shopping centers that are designed to replicate the feel of old downtowns.
To keep up with the demand, a few companies have begun making clay and even concrete bricks that match the quality and style of old pavers. Winter Park goes to one of the companies, Pine Hall Brick in Winston-Salem, N.C., when it comes up short. Pine Hall makes bricks to match the ones laid in the city during the 1920s.
A handful of suppliers, like John Gavin, stick to the old bricks. His Historical Bricks Inc. of Iowa City scours dumps across the country for bricks. Gavin says he's shipped bricks everywhere from the Caribbean to Long Island to Beverly Hills. "And we're proud to say 40 to 50 million pounds have been reclaimed in three years," he says.
The return to brick streets can be costly. They can more than triple the price of asphalt — or more. Winter Park paid 14 times the cost of asphalt, or about $7 a square foot, to redo its main street with brick.
"They last. With a little repair they'll go another 100 years," says Eric Schallert, senior engineer in the Davenport, Iowa, Public Works department.
Brick streets last about 50 years, and repairs can be done by replacing only damaged bricks. Concrete has a similar life span but is more prone to potholes. Asphalt roads require resurfacing about every 15 years.
Advocates of brick streets also say that brick streets tend to slow speeding traffic and enhance property values.
Bedford, Ohio chose to keep its brick streets after two preservationists proved that the town could save money in maintenance over the long haul.
Approximately 900 residents of Davenport, Okla., were up in arms when they learned that the town was seeking a state grant to pave over the bricks on their main street. A showdown was averted, town clerk Sue Osborne says, when the money for the project dried up.
Losing the bricks would have cost Davenport its identity, says Paula Sporleder, principal of the elementary school. "Without those streets, we're just another little town losing businesses and dying like every other place around here," she says
Get on the phone Mr.Alvord. About driving ' her there ' I doubt you'd make good company on a six or seven our trip. I hope you apologized for your rude utterance.
Broad,
What kind of truck traffic do the cities/towns you mentioned get?
I was up in the Adirondacks a few years ago and the center of the town that we were visiting was paved with bricks. I noticed that there were wear ruts in the bricking, probably from truck traffic, and places where the plows had torn up individual bricks. That was somewhat surprising when I found out that the pavers had only been there two or three years.
Virginia Beach and Newport News, Baltimore's Inner Harbor, Budapest's Zoo and a beautiful small German town Husum and Old Montreal` are places that come to mind first. Admittedly some of the brick was for foot traffic only but the cobble stone had vehicle traffic of all sorts. Husum was easily 85% cobble stone old (1800's) and new and took what ever traffic came. (search.yahoo.com images husum germany for some good examples)
I never noticed any reason to not have pavers and stone.
Boston's Back Bay area as well as Somerville and Plymouth MA. do have stone roads with excessive wear but these three towns will also boast that they are original, so maybe we're talking 400 years.
What you evidenced probably is not typical and maybe the company that laid the stone wasn't experienced to do it, just came in under bit. Heck there is a part of I-95 northbound near the King's Hwy exit, you'd swear you just lost part of your steering on hot summer days and that is concrete overlaid with asphalt. I don't know anything except major cities use them and they are eye candy to me. If they brought in foot traffic to local shops, I'd want them. Norwalk has lost most all of it's Mom & Pop stores and to me is getting the feel of the Milford / Orange area od U.S.1.
The town keeps mentioning a brick walkway going from the beach area up as far as me. i'd be a good giggle is it was cement construction.
You ramble on aimlessly but say nothing of any importance.
What an amazing machine! Watching those wayward bricks conform to one continuous sheet of geometric trapestry is jaw-dropping. I applaud Jackie for bringing her unconventional ideas to the forefront and educating us as to what is out there. Without a doubt, brick roads provide quaint and charm. I loved the idea so much that we once had a long inlaid brick walkway installed to our front door. Charming? Oh, yes. Until winter, that is. Little did we know that the brick held moisture and became coated with a slick sheet of ice. The hazardous condition of the walkway was also misleading because the brick's rough surface somehow hid the ice from view. Needless to say, those slippery conditions outweighed the charm of our beautiful brick walkway. Does anyone know if Montreal has similar problems with its brick roads in frigid weather?
@ Addonaise,
I've been to the ' Old Montreal ' area in winter when they had a good 5-6 inches of snow for morning removal. It didn't seem any worse there than getting to my car on my asphalt drive here.
It may be that the walk you installed is to porous or that you need to seal the brick? Perhaps you need to use sand verses salt? When I was a kid in Upstate NY there were a number of old burlap potao sacks that stayed out in thre walking areas around my house til late spring. (attratcive, lol No.) I'm sure there is a readily available solution. Yes there are certain things that don't do well in various regions especially when it comes to weather. There isn't a winter season that goes by that we don't have some news video of how inexperienced drivers can't manage a ' dusting ' of snow. I hope you haven't already take up your brick, it is so charming isn't it ! It was a trend here that people were putting in stone aprons to their driveways for a while. I don't know if that stopped because of any hazards or just fell out of fashion.
Hey Broad River,
Thanks so much for your feedback. It could very well have been porous, unsealed brick that was used in our walkway since we decided to lay it ourselves with recycled bricks. It was our first home, so I am not sure if the walkway is still there. Now that you mention it, the logistics would be thoroughly weighed before using brick as an alternative. I've been to Montreal, too, and those cobblestone streets are charming, indeed. Interesting about the use of burlap bags vs. salt or sand. Still, the visual of Grandma's frozen laundry hanging on the line comes to mind. I guess "black" ice is gonna git ya, no matter what the material.
I apologize for what was a duplicate post.
Not very practical when utilities need to repair pipes under the road. It would definitely increase the amount of time and expense in removing the bricks and even longer to try and replace them afterward. This would result in higher costs to consumers. Brick roads also don't seem to plow very well in snow or icy conditions and definitely don't ride as smoothly as asphalt.